INTERVIEW WITH THE TRAIL OF TED BUNDY AUTHOR

INTERVIEW WITH "THE TRAIL OF TED BUNDY" AUTHOR KEVIN SULLIVAN AND NEW INFORMATION ON THE BUNDY CASE
 
While working on an article to update the world of True Crime enthusiasts about the most recent revelations in the Ted Bundy case, I got word that author Kevin Sullivan was readying a follow-up book to his excellent Bundy biography "The Bundy Murders" which was released in 2009. I got in touch with Kevin and we discussed some of the new information that he was putting into print for his "companion book" titled "The Trail Of Ted Bundy". I thought this would be the perfect time to do an interview with Kevin to coincide with my update piece on the Bundy saga. Kevin happily agreed and we began our latest discussion of the infamous serial killer case that still fascinates readers to this very day.
 
Jeff Hayes: Please tell us how you first came to write about Ted Bundy and what interested you in this fascinating case so many years after his execution.
 
Kevin Sullivan: I never planned to write a book about Ted Bundy. But in 2005, I met through a mutual friend retired detective Jerry Thompson, the lead investigator in the Bundy case in Utah. The meeting itself was quite interesting, but because Jerry has had Ted Bundy's murder kit all these years (and had brought it to Louisville) the meeting took on a special, and very surreal meaning. Indeed, before Jerry returned to Utah, he gave us each one of the large green Glad trash bags from Bundy's murder kit. And to be honest, it was seeing and handling his murder kit, and being given one of the trash bags, that drove me to find out more about Bundy and the murders. And from this a book was born.
 
JH: While doing research for your book "The Bundy Murders,", you discovered some previously undisclosed information. Can you tell us about these things and how you uncovered them?
 
KS: Yes, I discovered new and previously unpublished information from some of the investigators, and from some case files and transcripts that may not have been readily available to those writing Bundy books years ago. I know some of the detectives were more willing to talk after the passage of years. One murder I discovered previously unpublished information on was The Lynette Culver case. The info about this case, and Bundy's other activities while in Pocatello, are covered extensively in The Bundy Murders, but for those who haven't read the book, here it is in a nut shell: During my research, I was getting to the point where I was starting to track down info on the Culver girl and so, in just a casual conversation, I asked Mike Fisher, the Colorado investigator, about her. I knew Fisher didn't work the case because Culver was from Idaho, but I inquired anyway. Mike told me that he was told by the Idaho investigator, Russ Reneau, during those whirlwind interview sessions at the end of Bundy's life, that the former law student had drowned the young girl in the bathtub at the Holiday Inn where he had rented a room. Of course, I knew that was a different MO for Bundy, but I didn't give it too much thought as I believed everyone knew this. As such, I called Bill Hagmaier (the former FBI profiler) one day to ask him about the Culver case, telling him that all I really knew about the girl was her name and how Bundy had killed her. But when I mentioned that Bundy drowned her in the bathtub, he seemed very surprised and told me that he was present when the Idaho investigators conducted the one hour interview with the killer, and nothing like that was mentioned. I then said that I'd gotten the info from Mike Fisher (he and Mike knew and liked each other), and he said he had a lot of respect for Mike, but nothing like that came out of the meeting. I then told Bill that I'd check with Mike and find out whatever there was to find out, as by this time, I wasn't sure what the truth was. When I telephoned Mike Fisher, he told me to call Russ Reneau, chief investigator for the Idaho Attorney General's office. Within a day I had tracked down Russ, and he was more than willing to speak with me. He then explained that they only had an hour to talk with Bundy and in that time they had to cover two cases: the Lynette Culver case and the murder of the still-unknown hitchhiker Bundy killed in Idaho in 1974 as he traveled to Utah to attend Law school.In the midst of this fairly quick paced confession, Bundy was asked how Culver died, and he responded drowning. But because he'd already mentioned that he placed her body in a river north of Pocatello, everyone assumed this is where it occurred. However, soon after the meeting was over and they were leaving the prison, Russ Reneau asked his co-investigator, Randy Everitt, to return inside, and ask Bundy specifically about it. Amazingly, the prison allowed Everitt to see Bundy again in what was an unscheduled meeting. Hagmaier had already left, as had Bundy's attorney, and technically, this little get together between Everitt and Bundy shouldn't have taken place. As they sat there talking about it, Bundy admitted that he drowned the young girl in the bathtub, and, true to form, he admitted he had sex with her after her death. And this is why, Reneau explained, that Bill Hagmaier had no idea of Culver's actual manner of death. Well, I thought at the time, here I am the novice just researching the case, and Bill Hagmaier is a recognized expert who sat in on every confession (every scheduled confession, that is) Bundy ever made, and yet, I've got to go back and tell him the story I brought to him about this murder is true! To say I was surprised to learn something even Hagmaier didn't know would be an understatement. But one thing was certain, between the interactions I had with Russ Reneau and Randy Everitt, I got to the real truth of the matter, and because of it, the true story of the Lynette Culver abduction and murder could now be told.
 
JH: When your book came out in 2009, you began a discussion forum on the EXECUTED TODAY website where you interact with True Crime buffs about the Bundy saga. That forum has continued to grow and shows no signs of slowing down years later. It's an excellent source for fellow Bundyphiles to discuss the case with you and other fellow true crime buffs. Can you tell us how that got started and how you feel about it's staying power?
 
KS: Executed Today had learned from some source that my book, The Bundy Murders, was due to be published in late 2009 (it actually was released in the U.S. in August 2009 and in Europe a month later). And so, he asked if he could interview me and i said sure. He sent me a number of questions and I emailed him the answers. That interview was published on January 24, 2009, the 20th anniversary of Bundy's execution. I, of course, agreed to stay around to answer any questions (I really believed there would be perhaps 10 or 12 questions only) that might come out way; and I've been there ever since, chairing a conversation that is nearly 8000 posts.
 
JH: What do you find to be some of the most discussed facets of the case on the forum? What are some of the most commonly asked things that people still ask about Ted Bundy today?
 
KS: Well, folks ask all kinds of questions about Bundy and the case. I can't really say if there's a specialty, as it were, when discussing the case.
 
JH: I see people discussing everything from abduction locations, pondering Bundy's mindset at various times, trying to understand the necrophila and mutilation of some victims, and many more items of discussion. For newcomers to the case, please talk a bit about Ted's usual M.O. Did he always knock out his victims with his crowbar and then strangle them? Is he known to have used any other methods of dispatching his victims such as knifes or axes?
 
KS: Bundy had two usual MO's when dealing with victims, and even these would always merge. First, he would crack women in the head with the crowbar and knock them out. He would then have sex with them (often from behind) and strangle them to death. When he didn't want to interact with his victims, this is how it would go. But if he wanted to watch them and enjoy the fear they were experiencing, he would refrain from hitting them in the head. He would, in these cases, often rape them while they were awake, and after he was finished with them, he would either beat them to death with the tire iron, or strangle them. In Pocatello, Idaho, he murdered 12 year old Lynette Culver by drowning her in a hotel bathtub. We don't know if she was still conscious at that time, but this is how he killed her. He did kill Kim Leach (also 12) in Lake City, FL bu cutting her throat with a hunting knife.
 
JH: In this type of serial killer case, the murders are often sexually driven. Do you think Bundy's preference was for sex with living women or their corpses?
 
KS: Yes, all of Bundy's murders were sexually driven. Bundy could rape them prior to death, and he loved having sex with them as they were expiring. He was also a necrophile.
 
JH: Your book "The Bundy Murders" discussed Ted Bundy's penchant for necrophilia. I've long felt this became a very important ritual to him as his murders progressed. In your opinion, what was the motivation for Bundy's enjoyment of necrophilia?
 
KS: God only knows why Bundy loved necrophilia, but he did.
 
JH: A well known serial killer profiler explained to me that the necrophilia was a way for Ted to continue the power he had over a victim. He feels that Bundy's crimes were very much about power and control. The day before his execution, Bundy confessed to Washington state detective Bob Keppel that he had decapitated many of of his victims. Keppel suspected this all along because of the group of skulls disvovered on Taylor Mountain. Do you think Bundy took the heads for trophy purposes and then disposed of them in a fit of paranoia or do you think this was just another step in trying to prevent identification of the victims? And, even further, do you think he took the heads to use for sexual purposes?
 
KS: Yes, Bundy did use the heads for sexual purposes. There isn't a chance in the world Bundy didn't use them for oral sex purposes, and I cover this in "The Bundy Murders".
 
JH: There is a long standing question as to whether or not Ted Bundy killed 8-year old Anne Marie Burr in 1961. Bundy would have only been 14 years old at this time and he knew the Burr family because he had a paper route that they were on. I know it's impossible to know for certain, but, In your opinion, do you think this was Bundy's first murder and if so, why? (and if no, why not?)
 
KS: I think it's quite possible Bundy killed Ann Marie Burr, and he alluded to this during an interview with the criminologist, Ron Holmes, in the mid 1980's. Even so, it's something we will never be able to prove. It's a long ago case that is as cold as it will ever be. And that's too bad. I had the chance to interview Beverly Burr (now deceased) when I was doing my research for The Bundy Murders, and she was a very nice lady. I'm sorry she and her husband died still not knowing what happened to Ann Marie.
 
JH: Bundy himself long denied that he had anything to do with this murder. For years, Ann Marie's parents had written to Bundy on Death Row looking for answers. Eventually, at some point before his execution, Bundy wrote them back insisting that he had nothing to do with this crime and was just a "normal 14-year-old-boy" at the time. He told them that he had "absolutely no desire to harm anyone" at this point in his life.
 
For your follow-up book "THE TRAIL OF TED BUNDY," you visited many of the locations Bundy haunted (with the exception of Florida). What was that like for you? Did you ever feel spooked out?
 
KS: When I was writing "The Bundy Murders" I did visit Utah, parts of Colorado, and Florida, and for this book, I visited all the sites pertaining to Bundy, including a return to Utah and a full visit (this time) to Colorado. The only reason why I didn't return to Florida is because I so extensively covered those areas the first time around. Now, as to feeling creepy as such, no. However, some of those locations still carry something odd, as it were; something akin to a dark energy. It's perceptible to me due to my many years of Christian ministry (yes, I'm an ordained minister), so I know the spiritual reasons behind this.
 
JH: As a minister, can you get into the spirituality behind that and explain about how some locations can retain some sort of a "dark energy" from "evil" events that took place there?
 
KS: Well, I don't normally speak of these things in the history or true crime books I write, but because I alluded to "something" strange in several passages in my new book, I will do so now. When I speak of something dark, or something having a dark energy that still accompanies certain locations where bad things that have happened, I'm speaking of things that are spiritual and are still a part of the places based on what happened there. Now, let me go a little deeper into this. We humans live in a physical world. But along with this physical world (and this is around you now) there is the world of the spirit. Both worlds are intertwined, but most folks have no knowledge of it. But we all have an eternal spirit within us, but it lives in that other realm. Well, in the realm of the spirit, other spirits live and move around there as well. And these other spirits are demons and angels. And evil folks - like Ted Bundy- are aided by these evil spirit in the things they do. The demons can't force folks to do these things, but they will come to those desiring to commit such acts, and when they do, they will energize and strengthen them. And sometimes, certain evil spirits enjoy "hanging out" at certain locations where evil has flourished. In the case of Ted Bundy, there are still things around his former home on 565 First Avenue. That said, some sites do not seem to have anything attached to it today. A perfect example of this is Viewmont High School in Bountiful, Utah, where he snatched Debra Kent. So some places can carry a spiritual energy with it while others seemingly do not. I have many stories of the demonic I could tell you from my years in the ministry, but that would have to be for another day, as they have nothing to do with Ted Bundy.
 
JH: What are some of the previously undisclosed pieces of information that you dug up for "The Trail Of Ted Bundy"?
 
KS: For this new book I discovered new and previously unpublished information from Bundy's friends, and new testimony from others who worked, or were closely connected to the case.
 
JH: Thank you kindly for taking the time to discuss your investigations and insights into Ted Bundy for Serial Killer Magazine.
 
KS: Absolutely, my pleasure!
 
JH: "The Trail Of Ted Bundy" is a nice follow up to "The Bundy Murders" as it delves more into the personal recollections of Bundy's friends and others connected to him in one way or another. As they recall, for the first time in print, how they perceived him at various points in time, it helps paint an even more colorful picture of the many sides of the world's most notorious serial killer: Theodore Robert Bundy.
 
Case Update:
In early 2015, Dennis Couch, an investigator for the state of Utah, released a taped confession he recorded with Ted Bundy 2 days before his execution on January 24, 1989. This interview provided a couple of interesting details that were previously unknown to the public about the murders of 2 teenage Utah girls. During this confession, Bundy confessed to the murders of 17-year-old Debra Kent and 16-year-old Nancy Wilcox. Kent, a student in Bountiful Utah who vanished from her High School parking lot on November 8, 1974 on the evening she had taken her parents to see a play at the school. Bundy confessed that after abducting her, he brought her home to his apartment and kept her there for approximately 24 hours, during which time he killed her, though he wouldn't admit to how he did it. During the interview, Bundy is more interested in trying to help investigators locate her remains than to divulge details of her murder. He claims that helping find the remains is much more positive and more important than going over the murder. Listening to the tape, you can tell that Bundy is thinking back to 15 years ago when this all happened. He tries to visualize everything in his mind as he drives his volkswagon through various towns in Utah and lets out bits and pieces of information as it comes back to him. He describes the terrain in the area where he brought Kent's corpse and states that he dug a grave 2 to 3 feet deep in which he placed and buried her naked body. He cut her clothes into pieces which he scattered along the highway on his return home.
 
Nancy Wilcox, an Olympus High School cheerleader vanished on October 2, 1974, on her way to buy a pack of gum at a nearby store. Bundy stated that he restrained her, put her in his car, and took her back to his apartment. He claims that he killed her the next day and journeyed south to an area near Capital Reef National Park where he dumped her body. As he groggily discussed various details that were entering his mind, Bundy claimed that he needed better maps to further pinpoint the actual location where he dumped the body.
What is particularly interesting is the fact that Bundy admitted to bringing these victims to his apartment, killing them there, and driving their bodies to dump sites after. Up to this point, there had been no absolute confession from Bundy himself admitting to bringing the victims home. It was mostly speculative in previous Bundy books and interviews, however, the interview with Couch reveals that Bundy did indeed bring some victims home. Bundy also admitted this privately to FBI agent Bill Hagmaier. The question that remains is how did he manage to get the victims in and out of his apartment without being seen or heard and what exactly did he do to them while they were there? Unfortunately, that is a secret Bundy took to the grave.
 
During the summer of 2011, a vial of Bundy's blood (taken in 1978 during the investigation into the death of Kimberly Leach) was discovered in Florida during a cold case investigation. Up until that point, a complete DNA profile for Bundy could not be developed. With the discovery of the blood vial, Bundy's full DNA profile was finally able to be uploaded into the FBI's national database. As of this writing (April 2016) there have been no hits or unknown victim discoveries, that's not to say that it will never happen. Perhaps in the very end, Ted Bundy did confess to all of the murders he remembers committing.
 
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